A tale of two universes: debating on dailykos.com

It appears there are two universes operating here in the blogosphere.  

One universe is the world of rational debate, in which people test each other's arguments with reasons.  This is the universe in which the phenomenon Jurgen Habermas called the "rationalization of the lifeworld" is allowed to exist, with the potential in hand for what Habermas called "communicative action."  In this universe, arguments are respectfully tested to see if their claims measure up to reality, to the moral standards of individuals and of society, and to human beings' inner longings for satisfaction.  This is a universe of human beings working with words to discern truth, through the vehicles of credibility.  We can call this universe the universe of communicative action, or the public sphere.

In the other universe, the bandwagon effect rules, and argument isn't worth anything.  This universe seems to pop up with greater ferocity in the mass panic that attends the run-up to elections -- without regard to the inappropriateness of such a universe to the situation which it confronts, or for that matter to any social situation.  What matters in this other universe is cheerleading, and conformity of advocacy.  This is the universe of the sacred and the profane.  Among the sacred are those who defend what's good and true, and among the profane are those who dare to question.  Testing assertions is sacrilege in this universe.

There is a certain futility to this universe: if argument isn't worth anything, then any sort of "public sphere" or even a semi-public, semi-private sphere such as, say, DailyKos.com, becomes a mere echo chamber:

Without a doubt the two universes, the universe of communicative action and the universe of the sacred and the profane, coexist in the Internet because of the dual public/ private character of the Internet.  The Internet offers a public sphere, in which individuals of different persuasions may at times exchange opinions.  Oh, sure, there is a sort of "mailed in" character to Internet exchanges -- words on the Internet are just pixels on the screen, and these pixels are already pre-selected for your consumption.  So people select the pixels with which they already agree.  This is backed up by research:

Research has confirmed that the Internet exerts a polarizing force on the electorate. In his 2011 book The Filter Bubble, Eli Pariser writes about how search engines and social networks filter out dissenting opinions and offer users only what they want to see. Google and Yahoo draw on a user’s past search preferences when responding to queries, meaning that over time a liberal and a conservative might receive ideologically opposite search results having entered identical information. (Pariser recounts how a conservative entering the letters “BP” into Google received stock tips, whereas a liberal was linked to news stories on the Deepwater Horizon oil spill.)

Similar work by Cass Sunstein, the current Administrator of the White House Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs, shows how the Internet creates “echo chambers” where users surround themselves only with the like-minded.

So, to be sure, there is this echo chamber thing going on with the Internet.  The Internet separates out into separate universes of sacred and profane, where the various true believers congregate in the echo chambers.  But occasionally Internet site owners will allow differences of opinion, and exchanges of these differences, to be voiced.  Usually these exchanges end badly: what you get is combative interaction, and nobody really learns anything.  Sometimes, however, you get instructive exchanges on the Internet.  These exchanges were something our society once called "genuine debate."

One thing that can promote instructive exchange on the Internet are open discussions of how to argue.  We can promote the universe of communicative action by spelling out the difference between an exchange of opinion that merely ends up in combative interaction, and one that is actually productive of some greater truth that opposing sides can accept.  Only more promotion of the universe of communicative action will, ultimately, persuade people to one's way of thinking.

*****

Once upon a time, back in July of 2010, I wrote a diary that attempted to provide such an open discussion, and by extension the universe of communicative action.  This was a very popular diary, making the Rec List, and receiving 400 tips in the "tip jar," and a diary which explored the extent to which DailyKos.com itself was part of the universe of communicative action.  It was written in the context of the controversy surrounding Obama administration policy.  This diary was called "On the Ad Hominem Argument," and I wrote it largely in defense of critics of Barack Obama.  Its relevance continues to this day.

In this piece, I choose to focus upon ad hominem attacks.  The problem was this: instead of discussing actual arguments for and against Obama policies, participants in DailyKos.com (and other Internet sites) adopted a cheap routine of blaming the sources of these arguments.  Here's how I phrased it:

...just because Cenk Uygur or Jane Hamsher or David Sirota or Rachel Maddow or Ed Schulz (or for that matter Grover Norquist or Joe Lieberman or Rand Paul) makes a particular argument ("claim X") does not mean that "claim X" can be dismissed outright because Cenk Uygur or Jane Hamsher or David Sirota or Rachel Maddow or Ed Schulz or Grover Norquist or Joe Lieberman or Rand Paul is a "tool" or "stupid" or "self-aggrandizing" or "mendacious" or whatever insult one might apply to anyone who makes an argument.

Or, put more simply:

Arguments do not count as "true" or "untrue" merely by virtue of whomever said them.

There is, I argued, an antidote to the ad hominem argument.  Here's how I phrased it:

The way around the ad hominem argument, the ONLY way around it, is to EXAMINE THE ARGUMENT ITSELF.

"Examining the argument itself," my proposed solution to ad hominem combative interaction, is of course the heart and soul of the universe of communicative action.  It's good against all sorts of dismissals (and not just ad hominem dismissals).  This is important to remember.  The universe of communicative action is enriched when people examine arguments, rather than engaging dismissive squabbles.  This doesn't mean that you have to accept everyone's argument as valid.  It does, however, mean that if you want to promote the universe of communicative action, you should test the arguments of others with reasons, rather than dismissing them outright.  Many arguments will doubtless fail your tests.  But you will at least have granted them a hearing.

My diary, then, was an appeal to the universe of communicative action in a place which (given the reactions I got) was very much open to that universe.  Well, that was DailyKos.com, back then.

Nowadays DailyKos.com appears to have drifted into the universe of the sacred and the profane.  It provides a fertile environment for diaries such as this one:

I don't expect to see another democratic candidate like Barack Obama in my lifetime.

Here is one of my favorite passages from this diiary:

This Barack Obama is smarter than this country will let him be. Make no mistake about it, this president is a prisoner of US---our collective reluctance to catch up to him.

This writer considers herself a "democratic socialist" -- which stylizes the appeal to the sacred here.  You can "disagree with" Obama's policies, all you want, over at DailyKos.com -- as long as you write nice love letters to him, and preserve the division of sacred and profane that site owner Markos Moulitsas is determined to enforce upon contributors to his site.  Also, site participants are warned: don't get too deeply into those disagreements -- the idea of not voting for Barack Obama next Tuesday is now something that you don't want to "go there" over at DailyKos.com

The diary I've cited is also interesting as a site of recent bannings --the site owner kicked a number of people off of DailyKos.com for having ventured into the land of the profane.  So, for instance, this commenter has been banned:

This "love letter" to a man who has done much the same evil as did George W. Bush.

The site owner's reply to this comment?

Anyone who wants to play the "no difference" card can go fuck themselves.

Now, a well-documented argumentative journey into the land of what site owner Markos Moulitsas considers the profane has in fact been made -- and it was cited by this now-banned comment author:

And now Matt Stoller has made an equally devastating socioeconomic case against Obama in Salon.

Now, in my opinion Matt Stoller makes a meaningful case for not voting for Obama that 1) avoids the desultory, self-contradictory, and ultimately racist arguments against Obama made by Republicans, while 2) suggesting reasons why a vote for Obama will neither accomplish anything significant for any "progressive" cause, nor will it effectively prevent anything onerous which the Republicans might propose.  Markos Moulitsas' counter-offer: "Anyone who wants to play the 'no difference' card can go fuck themselves."  Were you persuaded by this?

Stoller won't, of course, get a hearing over at DailyKos.com .  Nor can I say for sure that Stoller is entirely correct and Moulitsas entirely wrong.  But Markos Moulitsas just isn't going to make a persuasive case for Barack Obama by shutting down the universe of communicative action, through outright dismissals of those who make a case for voting for someone else.  

How does actual persuasion work, in real life?  This topic is too broad for exposition here -- but let me suggest a metaphor here that might provide some insight into the process.  One of my favorite metaphors for actual persuasion is the "Chair Theory of arguing."  This comes from Jack Rawlins, author of a writing textbook titled The Writer's Way:

The Chair Theory of arguing says imagine your reader sitting in a room full of chairs, each chair representing an argumentative position.  She is sitting in the chair that represents her opinion.  You're sitting in your own chair, some distance away.  Your goal as arguer is to convince her to get out of her chair and move to the chair next to you.  What makes a person willing to move toward someone?  Does a person come toward you if you tell her, "You're an idiot for sitting in that chair..."

Does that help any?

Meanwhile, we can count on being exposed, throughout the political Internet to another week of the Fish Good Guys/ Bad Guys Cheer.  The power!  The glory!  Feh.  Real argumentation actually persuades.  Dismissals, cheerleading, and other appeals to the sacred/ profane only appeal to already-converted true believers.

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Wednesday, the 7th, should be interesting

Shahryar's picture

I expect the President to win re-election. Whether he does or not, it now seems pointless to use that other site for discussion.

On the pro side, there's fairly instant feedback. There will also be opposite interpretations of the outcome, leading to expanded explanations.

On the con side, win or lose, those people are going to be in a nasty mood towards anyone not expressing a worshipful opinion of Obama.

I amuse myself by imitating Rachel Maddow's typical schtick, "President Obama today locked up a million leftwingers.....but that's not good enough for the Republicans!" That's where the mindset is now at dKos. Policy does not matter. Only Obama matters and whatever he says or does is, by definition, good.

Gooserock, for one, has been saying we should work for the President's re-election, or at least hope for it, and then, on Nov. 7th, start pushing for change in the party. That's not going to go over well, I predict! Those people will not take kindly to calls for change. Assuming an Obama win, it'll be four more years of "oh he's got such a beautiful family!" and then in 2016 they'll be angry at anyone who doesn't support his anointed replacement, since that would imply not supporting Obama, himself!

It's really the end for dKos as a place for dialogue, which is too bad. The owner must have his reasons for going along with this, none of which would make him look good. But what worries me is this: We talk about the need to reclaim the Democratic Party, or to help build a third party and we can't even win the Battle of dKos. The 'bots have won that. The place is now, like Animal Farm, run by "Napoleon", the authoritarian.

This is why I look back at the hippie model of creating a subculture. If we are so outnumbered in the world then perhaps we need to let the world go by. I'd like to have more influence. I'd like to help stop wars and reverse global warming. But if I can't get people at dKos to agree with that then I figure my chances in the world at large are zero. At least, using that method of communication.

 

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Very well said.

Reading this comment was like seeing my own thoughts on the screen.  I'm not going to give in to that temptation to just let the O-bots have their way without pushback, though.  That is exactly what happened to the Republicans.  They let the fringe Tea Party take over the party, with little resistance.  The result has been very extreme positions espoused by GOP candidates and sitting members of Congress, and attempts to hold the nation hostage for political gain.  The O-bots will be no different if we let them continue their unchecked rise.  

The cult of personality around Obama is a dangerous thing, and Markos' active efforts to encourage that cult is a threat to the nation.  That is my opinion.  He...they...must be stopped.

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it's going to be very inconvenient...

liberaldemdave's picture

when the "annointed one" is none other than clinton. the 'bots hate her with the rage of 1000 burning suns...whatever will they do? however will they resolve their internal conflict when dear leader annoints her? we've already seen the trail being laid by bill's work on the campaign trail. 'tis a mere matter of time.

if i had the patience, i would be comment mining now for future use. that is, if i really cared.

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These days

shaharazade's picture

the obots are singing the praises of  Hillary for 2016.. She's a badass and this administration's foreign policy enforcer and as such is now a symbol of the neocon/neoliberal take over of the party machine. She has undergone rehabilitation. Personally I think Obama was/is just the PR spokes person for the Clinton DLC/ Third Way machine that owns and runs the Democratic Party. Hillary is the blatant badass killer face of the Dems. while Obama tries really hard to cloak his anti-democratic  NWO  disaster capitalism ideology and agenda as rational, moderate, pragmatic and decent.. The adult in the room.  As for Big Dog he remains the king maker and ring master of the current Democratic circus. He feels our pain while we eat those peas and sacrifice for the oligarchical collectivists, and the 'inevitable' PNAC world as we find it.

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The US media bubble so often tells the story that ...

BruceMcF's picture

... personal fights for position are in fact some kind of "principled policy" difference that even after four years of a Clintonian administration, they cannot admit that the primary fight between Clinton and Obama was a fight to see which Hedge Fund Democrat would win the right to run for the position of President.

After all, what was the only position in which Senator Obama was meaningfully more progressive than Senator Clinton? Relying on an employer mandate rather than an individual mandate for the broadly "moderate Republican" health care reform each was proposing.

And how firmly did President Obama hold to that position? Recall that the reason advanced for abandoning the employer mandate and the public option and relying on the individual mandate ... was to get to 60 Senators and avoid the filibuster and the complications of reconciliation.

Then, lo and behold, once the full Heritage Foundation policy was adopted, why, reconciliation to adopt the program was just fine after all.

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yep after 20 years of working to affect...

change from within the system, i realized that true change can only come from outside the system. almost all of those in the system are corrupted from the time they take office/gain power if not before, and their livelihoods post-office are tethered to the big money folks as well...

the only way we will be able to get that change will be from outside the system - a crashing of the gates to paraphrase Markos's earlier words. that is the only way we will get change...

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How did the radical reactionary oligarchs purge the

BruceMcF's picture

... Rockefeller Republicans from the Republican party (to join the Democratic party as the Hedge Fund wing)?

Building institutions independent of the party and pushing the party from both the inside and the outside at the same time ... indeed, retreating to the independent radical reactionary institutions after a defeat inside the Republican party, ready to go back inside if the opportunity presented itself.

Without the independent institutions, they were the but of jokes in the 1950's. With the independent institutions, the half of the elected Republican party that is not from the radical reactionary wing knows they have to act like they are from the radical reactionary wing to avoid a primary.

In other words, what makes the veal pen a veal pen is the penning up. The key characteristic is when the Hedge Fund insiders say, "but you don't have any alternative to the Democratic Party" is to be able to say, "aha, you're right ~ that's a problem I'm setting off to rectify".

 

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Hot Damn, Sapphire. What an great discussion!

geomoo's picture

Wow, just wow, taking turns and laying it down.  Thank you to all involved.  I look forward to reading on.  Just wow--perhaps the most enlightening, thorougoing, continally on-point, with each comment expanding in a different direction--I mean, great as it often was, I don't know if I ever have seen such a thread on dkos.  

What a relief to be able to discuss reality.

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They copied the communists.

geomoo's picture

Those budding neocons in Nixon's time did everything they could think of to steal and protect power, including copying methods used in both Communist China and the USSR.  They made books into best sellers, including one that laid the ground for Fox by claiming to demonstrate that media had a liberal slant.  Problem really was, reality has a liberal slant.  Anyway, they stacked those book in the WH basement to get it on the best-seller list.  It became gospel.  I don't have the stomach for such tactics.  But I go along with local organizing the way they did:  school boards, clubs that influence policy, local politics of either party.

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Absolutely not.

Big Al's picture

Very few are truly antiwar, particularly most of the partisan democrats.  The only reason they say now that they opposed the Iraq war is because Bush and company got caught lying.  From top to bottom, that site is pro war now, they own it.

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Its like George W reputedly saying, ...

BruceMcF's picture

... after losing his first run at public office, that he would't be out-Texased and out-Christianed again.

Part of the institutional memory of the Democratic insider establishment was the rise of anti-war liberals within the party in the early 70's in the reaction to the  Vietnam War, which then leaped to positions of power as a result of Watergate, even as the electorate was being herded into the positions that would make up the three decades of a natural Republican advantage in the pursuit of the White House.

The blaming of those anti-war liberals for the Republicans being able to take advantage of the favorable terrain is part of the folkview of the Democratic party insider establishment, and the reaction is, as State Senator Obama said in the lead in to the Iraq War, to be generally pro-war, but reserving the right to object to some particular war as a misguided waste of military resources that would be better deployed in some other war.

Which makes the alliance of the anti-war and the pro-war, anti-Iraq-War factions during the latter days of George W a pure coalition of convenience for the pro-war faction.

Obviously the pro-war Democratic party insider establishment has been all-in behind President Obama since he both oversaw the completion of the pull-out from Iraq and ordered of the wasting of Osama bin-Laden.

And humanity is a tribal species, and there are deep seated emotional responses that can be tapped in support of war-mongering in a complex society, especially when the burden of actual war-waging is born by only 1% of the population. Being anti-war in general in the face of appeals to tribal loyalties is not an easy thing to sustain without consideration, and since most people in this country make their political choices reflexively, that consideration is in scarce supply.

 

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Yes

geomoo's picture

I read the theory that the rise of densely packed block formations of Greek fighters supported or even caused the rise of democracy.  The powerful class needed a lot of fighters, so the fighters had power.  Similarly with Roman legions.  But when no one is thinking about the wars, including my "liberal" friends, there is no pressure to end it.  When I bring up some aspect of drone attacks or other illegal violent activities of the USG, there is usually a moment of silence, as people adjust their focus, get sober perhaps, and don't have much to say.  They haven't been thinking about it much, or so it seems to me.  It's not on television much, what with all the important coverage of who's going to run the show next.

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I've heard Galleys ...

BruceMcF's picture

... the religio-authoritarian Spartans had phalanxes, where the Athenians excelled was their Navy.

Athenian democracy was only partial ~ a democracy of slave-owners ~ and only lasted 200 to 300 years (depending on whether the first version which was taken out by the rise of oligarchs is counted as a pre-cursor or as the founding).

But they did make democracy famous in the West of the Eurasian continent, since they were a democracy during the Peloponnesian War.

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You're either with us or you can fuck off.

Big Al's picture

Kind of the same thing only different.  Makes that 99 percent thing seem like a fantasy, which it is.  The only comfort is that famous quote from Margaret Meade:

"A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has."

 

 

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Excellent question.

Remember when we all vehemently protested drone strikes under Bush?  I wonder what they're response will be when Mittens (assuming he wins) launches his first strike.  Condemnation, I expect, which will expose the sheer hypocrisy of their support for Obama's drone war.

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No, not a chance

shaharazade's picture

War is Peace Ignorance is strength. We gotta kill them there because 'Terrist's will kill yer family'.  The best way to kill the extremists is with flying hell fire so that  no American heroes die. The Bush Doctrine is now the Democratic way forward, keeping us safe from the evil insurgents, extremists, terrorist's and whatever else they call the people and countries the target.   

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I have dominion over you, beast!

priceman's picture

The streets will flow with the orange blood of the non true believers during election time then we may dismay on all that is lost when it is too late, such is our fate.

 

The Chair Theory of arguing says imagine your reader sitting in a room full of chairs, each chair representing an argumentative position.  She is sitting in the chair that represents her opinion.  You're sitting in your own chair, some distance away.  Your goal as arguer is to convince her to get out of her chair and move to the chair next to you.  What makes a person willing to move toward someone?  Does a person come toward you if you tell her, "You're an idiot for sitting in that chair..."

I love this. In the game of political musical chairs this can get confusing for those making this argument this way were once sitting in that chair and now glare in an angry light you for staying in that same chair and now they want to fight. It's not the right way to have a debate such is our fate.

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Great essay. You're right on the money.

Glinda's picture

I could have never said it as well as you did, and you're absolutely right.

There is no point to being a member of any blog if one can't speak their minds, of course in a respectful way to other members.

If one is involved in a discussion but is restricted by saying everything they want to say in order to participate in a respectfuly discussion, or that discussion takes a turn of deflection by being asked this question, that question but can't fully answer because one must adhere to the mandate of not saying this or that, then there is no point to participation.

And pictures... oy, pictures.  Unless the picture is of a progressive bill that will help people, I don't want to see pictures.

I've never seen such a personal fan base of a politician in my life time. 

PS:  I don't belong, nor would I, to any fan base of any celebrity or singer either.

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Exhibit A.

Glinda's picture

Someone wrote a thread at the place this author was talking about titled:
 

How is this man SO close to being President of the United States?

In order to answer that question and debate and discuss it, for many people those answers include not cheerleading or fawning over any candidate; the answers revolve about policies and issues and how a politician handled said issues.

In other words, gagged even before the gate is opened for discussion.

(Link supplied upon request, if necessary)

 

 

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To be expected, I guess

Not to sound critical, but do you ever get the feeling you're being tolerated at DK just to ensure that there are still some trappings of leftist thought at the site? Just like the kids won't know it's Xmas unless there's some evergreens and mistletoe, DK can't be a "progressive" site unless there still some avowed anti-capitalists meeting up there. There's almost nothing else, as far as I can see. Moulitsas and most of the front pagers spend all their time handicapping every horse running, and the Deo Crew stir their pot of "All Things That Are, Are American Racism" occult brew, and the usual gang of idiots spend all their time defending every new neoliberal "innovation", from drones to austerity.  Except for pooties and various live blogs of non-news news events, there's not much to read, and even less to learn.

And as you astutely point out, there's no movement in the chair demographics, in any direction. Why do you persist? Serious question. I'm frankly happy to be banned from there; I can waste time on more rewarding pursuits, like handball and feeding Occupiers. Your analytical skill and activism are far beyond what I can muster, and I admire them both. But I have to wonder why someone with your talents persists in drilling that very dry hole.

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The next week will be interesting.

Especially come Nov. 7.  Markos is feeling the stress of a very tight election and taking that stress out on anyone who doesn't kowtow to his god.  Much like the Tea Party, he is purging all voices that do not mirror his own, creating the echo chamber you speak of.

Brilliant diary, here, by the way.  Tweeted the diary, lit your bulbs, and deeply appreciate that there are people out here who see through this madness over at dKos and are willing to confront it.  And the very most basic way to confront it is to argue your position effectively, which you so eloquently espouse here.

Win or lose, the O-bots have sacrificed their credibility, both in the progressive movement and in the political world at large.  I will be watching them closely to see what happens, especially if O loses...an eventuality I see as possible, but unlikely.

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is Markos trying to protect his influence?

Shahryar's picture

That's one possibility. If Obama loses then dKos means less in the political world. It started out as a liberal web log site, where policy could be discussed and a winning strategy could be planned.

And it worked or at least seemed to work, as the Democrats made gains in '06 and then '08. But if the Democrats lose, especially the Presidency, then Markos' position as kingmaker vanishes and the site becomes just another blog.

Funny thing is, we all know that Obama would win in a landslide if he had followed up on his 2008 rhetoric.

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As the blogosphere rose to prominence ...

BruceMcF's picture

... it attracted the attention of those looking for a tool for campaign propaganda. At the same time, with the increase in reliance on Google ad placement, the financial footing for progressive political blogs from advertisements has been declining. Being a good little online lieutenant ensures campaign ad placements, and also ensures that the wrath of the online gangs that both propagate and protect campaign propaganda are not directed at kos and the Agent Orange front pagers.

And so the revolutionaries build institutions in the image of the ancien regime and then in the name of defending the institutional revolution begin acting like the defenders of the ancien regime that they originally rose up in revolt against.

 

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here's something that fries me

Shahryar's picture

I am so tired of reading "I used to be a Republican but now...", with all of those "hugs" responses.

They're very happy STILL being Republicans, they just call themselves something different now and they expect the agenda to be the old Republican agenda they knew and loved before the tea baggers got a hold of the apparatus.

Those people, added to the cult followers, make up a group of people I wouldn't want over for dinner.

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This is a big part of the lie that Obama ..

BruceMcF's picture

... is the leader of the "progressive wing" ... since he is the leader of the Hedge Fund wing, which is made up in part of Rockefeller Republicans purged from the Republican party, it is a very comfortable fit for those realize that the President is not so radical after all ... certainly not as radical as is required in order to maintain the US as a coherent industrial society over the century ahead.

 

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yep... i can't tell you how much i think...

their behavior is a turn off to many folks... GOS is not a good place for any undecideds to be perusing... but that's because anyone who doesn't see it like them must be some kind of pony loving purist leftist right wing plant.

and i do believe that many of those that vote for O will do so in spite of them NOT cuz of them.

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It seems to be

shaharazade's picture

a Democartic talking point but then again most of their rhetoric and messaging is straight out of Orwells,  Goldstiens Book. 'The Theory and Implementation  of Oligrachail Collectivism'. double think and double speak...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Theory_and_Practice_of_Oligarchical_Col...

'but by the exercise of doublethink he also satisfies himself that reality is not violated . . . To tell deliberate lies while genuinely believing in them, to forget any fact that has become inconvenient, and then, when it becomes necessary, to draw it back from oblivion for just so long as it is needed, to deny the existence of objective reality and all the while to take account of the reality which one denies – all this is indispensably necessary. Even in using the word doublethink it is necessary to exercisedoublethink'.......Hence the Party’s perpetuity: "for the secret of rulership is to combine a belief in one’s own infallibility with the power to learn from past mistakes . . . The prevailing mental condition must be controlled insanity".
 

 

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Kos is about Party and HIS site.

UnaSpenser's picture

 

He's made it very clear, over and over, that HIS site is for electing Democrats. Yes, he says "better" Democrats, but I'm not sure what that means, any longer.

When Obama was running in '08, he presented himself with some very progressive agenda items. The list is long and I won't run through it here. The point is, that I supported him and was happy to be a part of DKos because I thought that, perhaps, there was going to be a genuine shift towards a just and democratic government, in response to the blatant neoconservative human devastation we had seen during Bush.

Problem is, that seemed to make people see Clinton (Bill) as "progressive" and a role mode. Clinton, the guy who got rid of bank regulation and crafted the globe-destroying NAFTA agreements.

In reality, DKos was only open to real debate when there were Repubs in the White House and he wanted to get Dems in. Once the Dems were in, that qualifier of "better" didn't really seem to matter, at all. Better than what? The crushing blow from in front of your face? Now that we have the crushing blow coming from a side angle, it's "better." 

Kos wants to be an authoritarian in his own little corner of the universe. Ok. His advertisers are paying for the site. His show. He has determined that his site is only for Dem sycophants. Fine. The rest of us won't be bothered any longer. I didn't go there for the Democratic party. I went there because I have principals and a desire for justice and sustainability. I won't give up my integrity by proclaiming that Obama is somehow going to drive us toward those things. He has shown that he won't. Over. And over. And over.

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But, but, but ... that's not pragmatic.

BruceMcF's picture

"Pragmatism" is about how to reach goals. How does "our goals should be set aside in favor of a particular type of strategy to meet our goals" even make sense?

Its just a shell game argument, "my goals are easier to reach, so they are better goals than your goals (even if they happen to be necessary to the survival of the society we are discussing)."

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Cass, this entire essay is spot on....

Mehitabel's picture

except for one small thing.

"Nor can I say for sure that Stoller is entirely correct and Moulitsas entirely wrong."

Moulitsas may or may not be entirely wrong about what, exactly?  How can he be either right or wrong when the argument he's put forth, in this specific instance at any rate, is "go fuck yourself" followed by the ban hammer?

Seems to me that Matt Stoller has won the debate by default, because he's the only one debating.  What Markos is doing, by contrast, is pitching a hissyfit.

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A doozy of a hissy fit

shaharazade's picture

and I think that's becasue he's got nothing to argue except the Republicans and Romeny are so scarry and teh evil that  we cannot ever ever compare them to the Dems. Even when the Dems enact the same policy and agenda and expand and enable the abuses of power. The front page is nothing but a litany of fear the RW manaic's. Hey, I know what they are so how about discussing what the Democratic party is implementing and advocating. Crickets about that or else a pack of twisty excuses and parsing the feaking by-partisan political kabuki were witnessing.

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I think the groupthink, running with the herd, bandwagon

Big Al's picture

thing can happen anywhere, including here.  One of the keys has to be to not be afraid to agree to the less accepted and to challenge the accepted.  I hope that can be done here.  Sometimes I'll go out there on my comments or writings and sense some of the same things I experienced at DK from some on here.  Some don't appear comfortable with certain things. 

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yeah, people need to not be afraid to...

disagree, even vehemently, and even amongst friends. i think if we can let our hair down and say what we feel and believe and do it constructively, that leads to a sort of moving forward and can lead to respect for others views, even if one doesn't agree with them...

i think part of that is due to some PTGOSD and is partly due to being overjoyed to be at a place where there are a lot of like minded friends... we just need to remember that even friends can argue constructively and still stay friends...

a lot of times i feel like going from there to here was a lot like going from high school to university, and for me it does take some getting used to...

you make a great point Big Al!  :D

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one more thought on this...

we also need to remember that if we don't understand something we read, to ask the author or someone who does understand, and as authors we need to be ready to explain some of the more intensive stuff to readers who ask...

i know soemtimes i'm guilty of not speaking up in the economics posts, cuz it just befuddles me and seems so confusing. i will try to practice this for myself... :D

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Great point.

 

No political site can be safe from the risk of groupthink taking hold.  It is something that requires people to actively work to avoid.  I, for one, have never been one to shy away from disagreement or speaking my mind, and I will do so on this site just as I did on dKos.  I hope, though, that we can have a more civil discussion here.  Civil people can disagree civilly.

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maybe we can proactively encourage disagreement

UnaSpenser's picture

we could pick a subject week, where we know there will be varying views and have the title or opening line of the body state that we expect disgreement amongst people. That we will uprate a comment which disagrees with whomever it is responding to.

Something like that, anyway, to remind ourselves that we don't want to bury our disagreements, we want them to be fodder for a continual process of finding creative answers.

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That's a great idea.

Glinda's picture

For issues that I'm not "up on," I need to learn more, I love to read respectful disagreement as it teaches me things I don't know and it shapes my opinions about how I feel about X issue.

I like disagreement, I feel I can learn more.  But when the disagreement gets nasty and non-productive and limited because one is not allowed to say X or Y, pfft, it's not worth my time. 

 

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There seems to be a bug

shaharazade's picture

in the preveiw function. I think it's a coding issue in the cache of some browers. I could not post for 2 days and finally my husband who started getting this message narrowed it down to the Preveiw button. Now I just write edit my comment and hit Save. Today I discovered that this site has a function that allows you to edit once you save. I  accidenatally saved something that was pretty incoherant and was able to edit it and hit save with out preveiwing it and fix it. I think the admins are working on it,  this place is well worth the work around. Good luck! Since I'm seeing your test comment you must be doing something right.

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An Ode to Agent Orange, by Yeats

BruceMcF's picture

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: a waste of desert sand;
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Wind shadows of the indignant desert birds.

The darkness drops again but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

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